You read about a case study for independent film distribution in the last chapter. Now let’s hear from an entertainment attorney about how the process works in the United States, and how you can propel your career forward by getting the best possible distribution deal for your film.

As The Film Collaborative (TFC) website advertises, they are “the first nonprofit committed to the distribution and facilitation of independent film.” Orly Ravid founded the nonprofit with her business partner, Jeffrey Winter, in early 2010.

Orly Ravid

Photo by Ben Miller

Could you tell me about your background and how you came to start The Film Collaborative?

I started working in film distribution in the late 1990s. I was at a small company that was doing international sales at a time when international sales was very strong. I started at the bottom as an office manager, and my boss saw that I was ambitious and entrepreneurial and had me launch a domestic distribution label—a small one, but I did it.

I left that company after a couple years and worked in development and distribution, started my own companies. But when I went to Cannes for the first time, I realized how many layers of middlemen there were and how much money a film would have to make for it to trickle back. I didn’t think it was a problem back then, because that was a robust time in the market, where films were being sold off trailers and pitches. But the whole notion of collaboration and not taking rights and having a nonprofit that was a safe space for filmmakers clicked with me. So we founded The Film Collaborative in early 2010. Now, the old model really doesn’t work for most indies, so I’m glad to have posited another option.

And what does The Film Collaborative do exactly?

We’re an organization that advises filmmakers and assists them in doing what they’re looking to do with their film. It’s a combination of things—helping filmmakers make good choices in distribution, make the connections they need, premiere their film in the right place, have a strategy for the film that’s appropriate and doable, market the film, find the right partners, all that.

At what point in a filmmaker’s process do you step in?

It’s a little early if it’s when you just have the idea for the movie, but we definitely should step in, and often do step in, before the film is 100 percent finished—and definitely before it premieres. People come to us at all sorts of points in a timeline with a goal of getting their film distributed. Sometimes we’re a last resort when they’ve tried everything else on their own, and now they’re coming to us for something very particular, and that’s fine too. That’s the whole point. We don’t tell people, “You must do this all with us.” We’re more like a menu.

A nonprofit with a menu of services.

Right, we’re an educational organization, a nonprofit with two books—we’re going to have a third—with a lot of free information on the website. You can become a member and get advice, all of that. You can also have us perform any of the services that happen in independent film distribution, but you also don’t have to. You can do one and not the others. You can work with us and twenty other companies. It doesn’t matter. So it’s not that we never help filmmakers do deals involving rights—we do that all the time. And with us, there’s no, “We’re going to own you or forget you.”

Can you break down exactly what you mean by a distributor “taking rights?”

Every single distributor takes rights. To really make it simple, when you make a movie, there are rights that you can license to that film that include the right to have it in theaters, nontheatrical festivals or events, public exhibition, educational, and home video rights. There’s also television—all kinds of TV rights. There’s digital download, streaming. Rights can get sliced and diced in many different ways.

A typical distributor, like FOX, is buying all your rights. A lot of these deals are included with a mortgage of copyright and security agreement. They own your movie for a period of time. Sometimes that period is forever, sometimes less. The bigger the company, the more they own, and the longer they own it. Other companies for smaller films might only take certain rights. For example, we had a film at Sundance that we did seven deals for in the United States alone. So obviously, each of those seven different companies we dealt with didn’t have all the rights. One company is the educational, another the theatrical, etc.

So would it be a good thing or a bad thing for a huge distributor to buy all of the rights to a film?

This is a very important topic, because the whole notion of filmmakers being right-brained is true, and so many of them aren’t designing themselves to be business people or distributors. So they’re very uninterested, usually, in doing their own distribution—and they can be attracted to the idea of handing it over to somebody else. That’s exactly why we facilitate different things.

Not everyone wants to keep their rights and do it on their own, so if you don’t want to do that, we’ll help you at least know where your options are and help you make the best decision. A lot of times it’s a combo. There are some things the filmmakers want to do themselves. That’s where analysis comes in. Even if they don’t want to do it all themselves, they’d rather be safe and not get screwed over. With something like FOX Searchlight, that’s a career-maker, if the deal is normal.

Meaning you should sell all of the rights to FOX Searchlight if you have that as an option? That would be a good thing in that case?

I think it might not be the best situation if it’s a little company that isn’t going to spend any money on your movie but wants to take all of your rights. But with a big distributor, that’s different.

The other important thing about all of this is that not everyone on the filmmaking team has the same agenda. We had a film that won at South by Southwest [SXSW], and I remember talking to the filmmakers about their choices. They maybe received less money than if they’d released it themselves, but the ability to spend six figures on the release instead of five makes a big difference in the impact. And the director’s career was made. He got a show at HBO.

But the other agenda is that sometimes producers got the money from investors, and they’re focused on paying back. They want to be able to go to those investors again for another movie, but the director doesn’t have that same obligation, so the director is less concerned about the money. The director’s not a producer. The director just wants her/his career made. So that’s part of what I was getting at earlier—there’s a different objective sometimes in the filmmaking team, and people have to be honest with themselves about what their objective is and have a clear hierarchy of goals.

Say somebody makes a film for $50,000, and it’s complete or near complete. Is there any kind of norm in terms of how much money they would get from the distributor?

Not really. Your ability to negotiate is contingent on how much the buyer wants your movie, so that’s why the advice isn’t the same every time. If you’re not premiering in an A-list festival, and you don’t have names in your film, and you don’t have something else that makes it pop and be very clearly a commercial or at least a solid niche prospect, then you might not get any deal. Or you might get deals for no dollars in advance. Distributors aren’t interested in wasting money or risking losing money.

What about rights? When does the distributor get rights?

The distributor gets rights depending on whether it’s all of the rights or just some of them, whether it’s only for the US or the world. It depends who the distributor is, what they want, and what you’re willing to give them and why. When you get money up front, it’s called a minimum guarantee or an advance. All that is to say, “At the very minimum, this is the amount of money you’re getting.” It’s just a fee to the licensor in advance, and it’s recouped against the royalty due to the licensor later. But with distributors who are taking a bunch of different rights, they’re saying here’s either $0 or $5,000, or $500,000, or $5 million, or whatever it is, against what you’re due later.

Can you explain net proceeds? When you say, “what you’re due later,” how does that work exactly?

This is the thing that people sometimes complain about with regard to the studios, but not only studios. The way some calculate net receipts and recoup the expenses means that you’ll possibly never get any money in the overages. With certain companies, it’s all about what you get up front. Distributors are taking a percentage of the revenue. It’s not always the same percentage for each class [category] of rights. For theatrical it’s a certain percentage, for DVD it’s a certain percentage, for digital, etc. That’s also part of what you need advice on—so yes, you need to work with a lawyer, but specifically a lawyer who knows about distribution and who can ask the right questions. It’s important to have a lawyer who not only knows what’s happening now but who can also either anticipate what’s going to happen in the future or can write the contracts in a way that protects the filmmaker from what may happen in the future.

If it weren’t for your organization, how would filmmakers figure out how to get distributed?

They’d call around to sales agents. Usually blindly calling through a list of sales agents or producers reps. And they’d either be very useful and help the filmmaker, say no because they don’t think they can make any money off of her, or think they can make money off her and screw her over. So the point is, you have to just align yourself with either a good entertainment lawyer, sales agent, or company.

How can you verify if someone is “good”?

You ask around. When you go to a market, the industry people attending and the sales reps attending are listed. But I think the better thing to do would be to take a look at films that are similar to yours and speak to the filmmaker and ask them who helped them. Otherwise, you’re going to be combing through thousands of sales agents, many who have no relationship to what you’re doing. You want a company or person who is honest, knows the business, had good relationships, can be a tough negotiator but also not foolish or blind. Someone who gets your interests and needs but can also be honest and realistic, not tell you what you want to hear only to disappoint you later. People walk away from good or the only decent deals when they’re either misinformed by themselves or misguided by a rep or agent.

Attending a few festivals and markets will give you a lay of the land, too. You’ll start to see who’s showing up. Talk to the festival programmers, but be careful who you get advice from. Festival programmers are often very “right-brained,” as they say, too, so they might be more like, Oh yeah, he’s cool, you know. And he might be cool, but he might also be the most crooked distributor on the planet and they don’t know that. So you have to ask enough people so you can get a consensus.

But showing up to places, meeting people, networking, finding people who know people who can help you make your connections—that’s a good way to go about it. Nobody likes to be solicited by people they never met before, so you probably need to take action by networking.

So when you say showing up to places, you mean festivals? And where else?

If you live in New York or LA, there are tons of festivals. If you don’t live in those cities, you go to Sundance just to experience it. Or you talk to schools and see if there are any professionals doing business in your area. Join independent film organizations, like IFP. Film schools should be helping students get networked and learn the landscape. Professors have contacts. It may be part of the curriculum, or it could be extracurricular. Especially if a film student is talented, the professors will be happy to have them be protégés.

What does a filmmaker need to watch out for in terms of the accounting language in a contract?

Different distributors have different reputations and contract scenarios. When they gave you a minimum guarantee—and this happens a lot—they’re charging interest on that as if they gave you a loan. So they’re recouping that, and then they’re recouping lots of different layers of fees and expenses. It’s not uncommon that people don’t see money after that.

You also have to watch out for middlemen, even with smaller distributors. Let’s say you sold all your rights for $3,000 to a buyer. But actually, what you didn’t know because you didn’t have somebody good advising you, was that the company farms out its TV, DVD, and digital deals. They do nothing in-house, or they only do a little bit in-house. What your contract says is that they’re giving you, let’s say 25 percent of gross receipts of what comes into them. They’re still doing that, technically, but it’s less than it would be if they didn’t have somebody in the middle. And that part you didn’t even realize. And it makes a difference.

Is that something you could address with your attorney?

Yeah. That’s why you need an attorney who knows the marketplace, not just an attorney who knows the law. This is a mistake I’ve seen time and again. If you’re having your uncle who does personal injury law do your contract, you’re being penny-wise and pound-foolish. For whatever the minimal legal costs would be—if your movie has the potential to make money, and you blew it because of that, that’s a dumb mistake.

What could filmmakers expect to pay if they were to approach an entertainment attorney to help negotiate these deals?

Lawyers charge a range of fees. I charge less than others, because we’re focused on a different kind of service for a different kind of filmmaker. But there are tons of lawyers and firms that charge $5,000. That could be totally appropriate if the deal could take a long time. It’s maybe more money than you need to spend if your contract is very short and your contract is for $5,000, you know? You’ve got to actually think through what kind of deals you’re going to be doing and what kind of legal services you need. Normal retainers are $5,000 if you’re dealing with a big firm with huge overhead.

In terms of The Film Collaborative, what could filmmakers expect if they were to become members?

Before they even give us a dollar, they can get our book, Selling Your Film Without Selling Your Soul for free, or they can pay a few bucks for a more fancy version on Kindle or iTunes. They can also get a ton of free information on our website. We have something called “Resource Place” that has a lot of different resources, hence the name. And “Distripedia” has a lot of info about digital distribution, and our blog is also chock full of information.

But if they wanted to be members, our fees are $75 at the lowest, and you’re buying an amount of time for consultation. It’s not meant to be service-oriented. If you want us to do certain services, those are different. We can do your theatrical release, festival distribution, digital distribution, or sales.

Do you have any advice to film students about prepping for their ideal scenario when they get done with school?

Yes! The prepping should be to know what kinds of films are being made that are doing well and getting released. Get very honest with yourself about your skill set, what you want your first movie to be, and how good it will be. Get advice and think through where it should premiere and start networking.

What about students making short films, not features?

Get those shorts submitted to all the best shorts fests so that you can get on people’s radar. Be smart and finish your film in time to submit before the deadlines. Network with programmers so they know who you are. Once programmers know about you, it’ll be easier to get them to look at your film. There’s no guarantee that they’ll show it, but you’ll be in the door a little bit.

What about the idea of knowing your audience? Can you address the importance of creating a film with an audience in mind?

All the buyers/distributors need to think about that. Not every distributor markets films or distributes them to the same types of audiences. So you have to know which festivals are right, if festivals are even an option for you, which distributors are likely, and what the marketing should be. By the way, TFC has free blogs about film festival cultures, trends, as well as distribution deals done at them. But if you start pursuing distributors that have no relationship to the kinds of films you’re making, you’re just wasting time and making a poor impression. You should cultivate interest in your film before it’s even finished so you can build a community around it. If distributors can’t figure out who your audience is, they’re not going to buy it.

You say, “make a poor impression.” So if your first film isn’t what you’d hoped for, not as good as you would have liked, do you not put it out there for fear of making a poor impression?

Well, look, even a good film isn’t enough. If it’s a great film that just, oops, bummer, nobody noticed, then it might be over for that film. And that’s a great film. I don’t mean over forever. You can always distribute it off your own website, that kind of thing! But if you’ve made just a mediocre film? First, I say, see what you can do with it to make it better. Maybe a whole new editing job. Maybe turn it into Web content. Or maybe just monetize it as best you can and use it as the first of many learning experiences. Film is hard—no one starts on top. I think if you’re honest with yourself about what your film is and act accordingly, people will respect that and you’ll learn and grow. I’ll also say what others and I have said many times before: Film is the most expensive art medium in the world, so take your time on the almost free stuff first. Get your script great and do as much planning and visualizing and advice-gathering as possible before you start your first day of shooting. It can only go up from there.