25
ARTIST'S PERSPECTIVE

Designing visual production is about selecting the right tools and special effects that will ultimately interpret the artist's music and image. The more that concert artists can express their images and convey their theatrical ideas, the more visual designers can understand which of the available tools and effects to apply, what colors are suitable, and how best to script the show cues. As you have read in Chapter 24, not all artists have the same level of involvement in their productions; when they do get interested, their input can vary widely.

WHAT TO EXPECT

An artist's comment can challenge a new design conceptin a way that might not have been conceived by the designer. Busy with contemplating technical parameters, the designer is working with a point of view of making the production feasible by compromising between the wish list and keeping it real and within budget, satisfying practical illumination requirements, selecting appropriate types of lighting fixtures, keeping it consistent with the rest of the production's needs, and fitting it all into a truck. There's a lot to consider!

But, enter the artist, who now comes forward with an entirely new group of needs and most likely stuff that you would have never thought about. if the worlds of lighting and staging design and artist perception can happily collide, the upshot can elevate a good show to an even higher level of an extraordinarily great show! It is the visual or lighting designer's responsibility to make sure that this happy collision actually takes place.

Some artists may not be able to describe the specific equipment that will achieve the end result they are looking for, so it will be up to you to read between the lines with regard to what their explanation means technically. You are the expert, and they are going to rely on you to deliver. It will be your notes from the presentation meeting, ideas, prospective equipment list, and implementation of the artist's ideas that will finally convert concepts and research into working reality.

ENGAGING THE ARTIST

One important and often overlooked part of developing a production is how to engage the artist. There is a social divide between road crew and artist (I recommend reading Roadie, A True Story, by Karl Kuenning). If you don't believe that, notice who travels first class. Make sure that you say “hello” to the artist as you continue on back to your economy-class seat. That divide needs a bridge, and in this instance it comes in the form of help to arrange a meeting between the artist and the visual designer. Usually a member of the artist's management team will facilitate such a meeting.

Remember that a famous recording artist is living life with a totally different mindset. They will be coping with all the special circumstances that surround stardom—band member disputes, preparing for a show, being late for a rehearsal, a manager's last-minute coercion to attend a radio interview. Their lives are very different from those of the road crew or designers who are responsible for the technical and even artistic aspects of developing and controlling a visual live production. We all have different sets of problems and circumstances, but, make no mistake, you're entering the artist's world, not the other way around.

ESTABLISHING A RELATIONSHIP

There are some guidelines—mainly, knowing when to speak and when to listen. The best guide that you will have in almost any meeting with an artist is simply to employ good manners, poise, and common sense. Generally speaking, the study and diligence required to design concert lighting and organize equipment will not include a course in etiquette and intuition, but they are necessary tools to have in your toolbox.

Making a strong impression is not the purpose of this meeting of the minds. Play it straight. The days of rock & roll royalty have subsided, and today's stars are business savvy and ostensibly very open to new introductions. Don't get too familiar right away. Show respect, and keep the conversation focused. In time, things will loosen up, but only after you establish yourself and become part of that touring family. There is some work to do first, before you gain the trust of the artist and are viewed as a valuable contributor to the team.

Develop ideas with the artist by explaining some of the initial ideas that you have. It is always best to show ideas using visual aids; if the artist has not been paying much attention before the visual aids came out, chances are this is when the ideas will begin to flow. You could walk out a hero, and your next step will be ordering all the things that were on your list, with only a few minor and easily achievable suggestions to fulfill.

HANDLING REJECTION

On the other hand, the ideas that you show may be immediately rejected. Regardless of how much you thought about it and prepared your presentation before entering the meeting, artists know what they want. Be prepared for a no-uncertain-terms, candid response. If that's the case, get past that initial feeling of intimidation right away and ask questions about what they might like to see. Keep in mind that it was your presentation, even though it was rejected, that was the catalyst to stimulating this new direction! Be sure to seize the opportunity while you are with the artist to get as much information as possible, right then and there. Consistent with the social divide, artists are not usually accessible for subsequent casual meetings. Follow the ideas that the artists are trying to express, take lucid notes, and endure the rest of the meeting with good spirits. When you leave the meeting, don't despair. Give it some time. Consult with others if that helps. Chances are, though, that with concerted efforts and some time to work through their ideas and mesh them with your own, it can actually be fun to puzzle together another presentation. Something completely unexpected and exciting will likely emerge.

THE ARTIST'S PERSPECTIVE

Concert lighting, effects, staging, and high-definition video media play a significant role in the live show, not only visually for the audience but also psychologically. As much pride as we may take in our work as designers and technicians, it does not compare to what the artist is experiencing. The artist is the one on stage. The artist is the one exposed to potentially millions of loving concert goers and, oftentimes, caustic reviews. There is a lot at stake, and most of the time the artist wants to be assured that the show is the best it can be. What the artist might say when planning and performing their live presentation is anyone's guess. Each situation is different, and every artist is very different. Speaking directly to the artist about the process of creating a live production should bring a real insight to designers and crew as to how much or little an artist can become involved in their show. This chapter presents interviews with performers and recording artists who are known for their elaborate stage productions.

KEVIN CRONIN, LEAD SINGER, REO SPEEDWAGON

Kevin Cronin (Figure 25.1), lead vocals and guitar for REO Speedwagon, has written the number-one

hits “Can't Fight This Feeling” and “Keep On Loving You,” as well as the classics “Roll with the Changes,” “Keep Pushin',” “Time for Me to Fly,” “Riding the Storm Out,” and “Take It on the Run.” REO Speedwagon's self-titled first album debuted in 1971; later albums included You Can Tune a Piano but You Can't Tuna Fish and Hi Infidelity, which sold 10 million copies. The band had sold over 40 million records altogether. REO Speedwagon continues to record new CDs (e.g., Find Your Own Way Home in 2008) and to film live concert DVDs (e.g., Live in the Heartland for Soundstage in 2008), in addition to creating impressive live productions on tour for sold-out performances worldwide (Figure 25.2).

ESTABLISHING IDEAS

Q. When you are aware that a new tour is in the works, when do the stage production ideas begin to form for you?

Ideas come all the time … sometimes seeing another artist's show gives me an idea of how I might take that concept to another level, sometimes a new song brings on a production idea, sometimes I am bored silly on a transcontinental flight and begin imagining our stage set for next year.

Q. Do you watch other shows or concerts to stay current on what is out there, or do you rely on your lighting or production designer for new technology updates? Or is it a little of both?

I would say a little of both, but when you form a relationship with an LD/production designer, and you trust his or her vision for your music, the whole process becomes much more enjoyable.

Q. Does the band do the research and discuss a concept first and then ask the designers and production team to develop those ideas? Or, would you say the designer presents ideas to you first and you develop them from there?

I never limit myself to one particular process for creativity. It matters not where an idea comes from; it is the quality, originality, and practicality of the idea that are most important to me.

Q. Do you have any preconceptions about new lighting and scenic designers when you meet them for the first time? What are some of the things that you hope this person is going to contribute to the live show?

I am very loyal to my team. When I form a relationship it takes a lot to make me look for new people. When I need to make a change I rely on a combination of good references, a common vision for our music and its presentation, and basic personal chemistry.

People That Create Ideas and Effects

Q. How important is it for you to see visual aids, ranging from rough sketches to 3D drawings, when a new concept is being presented?

I like to talk about ideas conceptually at first by trying to express something that I am seeing in my head or feeling musically. After I spend some time talking, I really appreciate seeing a computerized 3D mock-up of the idea. Back in the day, we just shot from the hip and hoped for the best. Now we can really see what our stage and lights will look like, complete with little stick figures of ourselves.

Q. Are you concerned with budgets first or ideas first?

I am always interested in ideas first, but the budget needs to be considered. I find it helpful to have a general understanding of how much we can responsibly spend on a tour production … and then go on and exceed it, but not too much.

Q. Can you give a viewpoint on the advantages of a long term designer/artist relationship?

We have been fortunate to be working with the same production designer for a number of years now even though he is vastly overqualified for this position … it helps to have incriminating video footage of your LD! REO has had the same manager, with no contract, since the band began in 1971, so obviously we understand the advantages of long-term artistic relationships. At the same time, there are instances where a band may want to shake things up simply for the sake of seeing what happens. But my experience is that, as long as I am evolving musically and the designer is operating at a high level, a long-term relationship with an LD allows us to grow together and improve upon what we did the previous tour.

Lighting to Convey Drama

Q. Let's say that the design is done, it is in rehearsal, and you like what you see. Do you leave it all to the designers at that point, or do you take an interest in further developing the theatrical presentation with them?

I enjoy the whole process of presenting a concert. I like to come up with new ideas myself, and I seek out the input of our LD … after all he is actually seeing the show from the audience's standpoint. Again, for me it is all about teamwork.

Q. Do you watch the stage from the front at rehearsals, or do you use a video camera and watch later to see how the show looks?

I watch videotapes of our shows for ideas, I look at the stage from out front during rehearsals, and as the tour goes on I check out the look during sound checks.

Q. Do you like it when the LD comes to you with updates and new ideas to try?

I love when our LD comes up with new ideas as the tour progresses.

Q. Some will argue that too much going on visually is distracting to your live performance. Is there a line for you between enough and not enough?

for REO, we have always been pretty much a no-frills type of band, but I still like to give the fans the best visual show we can. There is a delicate balance between tastefully complementing the musical performance and overshadowing the band with effects. Each artist needs to understand where the line of good taste lies, and having a designer whom you can trust is a real asset in these decisions. A long-term relationship comes in handy in these situations.

In The End…

Q. Designers for many mid- to large-sized production tours generally don't tour with their designs but leave them in the hands of capable touring LDs after the show is up and running. Budget aside, would you prefer to have the designer stay on the road to continue to contribute his ideas to grow the production, or are you all right with having another LD stepping in?

It is always desirable to have the guy who designs the system also running the system, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. We have been pretty fortunate over the years in this area … like I said, incriminating videotape.

Q. Most effects and imagery happen around the stage with lighting air graphic patterns through haze and behind you with imagery and effects. How can you really tell, when you are on stage, if things are going right or terribly wrong?

It is impossible for an artist to ever really know what he or she actually sounds like or looks like to the audience. This is one of the great frustrations of being a touring band. We have to trust our sound men and LD implicitly. Again, the entire touring team has a job to do—to exceed the audience's expectations. When the band, stage techs, sound men, and LD are all working in sync, and having fun doing it, the ultimate winner is the audience—and that is how it should be.

Q. What would be your final most important bit of advice to anyone who wants to tour with a rock & roll band?

The touring lifestyle is very unique and can be extremely challenging. I don't think you can make it unless you are passionate about what you are doing and have a flexible attitude toward life. There are temptations at every turn, which can be a lot of fun, as long as a person can keep the priority on the work. Getting hired to be on a touring crew requires equal amounts of ability and personality, so people skills are just as important as technical skills. Also, be prepared to throw your expectations out the window … nothing can prepare you for life on the road. You listen and learn as you go.

RONNIE JAMES DIO, LEAD SINGER, HEAVEN AND HELL AND DIO

Ronnie James Dio (Figure 25.3), lead vocals and writer/producer for Elf, Blackmore's Rainbow, Black Sabbath, Dio, Heaven and Hell, pioneered classical metal work since Deep Purple's Roger Glover and Ian Paice spotted him in 1972. With his vocal pyrotechnics on two Black Sabbath albums, Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules, Ronnie drew rock royalty's attention during metal's heyday. With the 1983 release of his Holy Diver album followed by Last in Line, he was packing stadiums with groundbreaking

stage productions. Ronnie reunited with Black Sabbath for the 1992 Dehumanizer album. The remainder of the 1990s saw Dio releasing Strange Highways (1994), Angry Machines (1996), and a live offering, Inferno/Last in Live (1998). 2002's Killing the Dragon was a classic Dio masterpiece, and the Evil or Divine DVD was filmed live in 2002 at New York's Roseland Theater. A tour with Deep Purple and the Scorpions followed. Today, Ronnie Dio writes, records, and tours worldwide with the classic reformation of Black Sabbath: Heaven and Hell featuring Ronnie James Dio (Figure 25.4).

ESTABLISHING IDEAS

Q. When you are aware that a new tour is in the works, when do the stage production ideas begin to form for you?

The ideas begin for me while performing during the current tour that I am on. The current show is always a great template for what's to come next.

Q. Do you watch other shows or concerts to stay current on what is out there, or do you rely on your lighting or production designer for new technology updates? Or is it a little of both?

I rely on the lighting/production designer for what new innovations are available. My technical expertise is limited.

Q. Does the band do the research and discuss a concept first and then ask the designers and production team to develop those ideas? Or, would you say the designer presents ideas to you first and you develop them from there?

Everything starts with the designer's research. After being informed as to new and interesting concepts I am able to incorporate them into my own weird perspectives. A great part of the stage presentation is involved with the album art. So, right away I have a path to follow. The designer and I are can now collaborate within the same world.

Q. Do you have any preconceptions about new lighting and scenic designers when you meet them for the first time? What are some of the things that you hope this person is going to contribute to the live show?

Yes. I've been spoiled by one designer for most of my productive years, so any affiliation with a new one is a real trauma for me. That designer is Paul Dexter and so I'll avoid any new traumas and “dance with who I brung.”

People That Create Ideas and Effects

Q. When meeting a lighting or production designer for the first time to discuss tour plans, are you able to tell right away that they are going to

be a good match, and have you ever made a decision not to take them with you on tour, then and there?

Yes. I have been able to tell right away.

Q. Suppose you had to choose between taking a lighting designer on tour that very clearly demonstrates great technical knowledge but you are uncomfortable working with this person (for whatever the reason) or hiring a lighting designer who knows less than the other person but shows more ambition and enthusiasm. Whom would you choose?

for a start, I wouldn't work with someone that I wouldn't like, but if the person that I did like had the capability to become better and I could be a help I would use him right away.

Q. How important is it for you to see visual aids, ranging from rough sketches to 3D drawings, when a new concept is being presented?

I really like to see it—up close and personal.

Q. Are you concerned with budgets first or ideas first?

Always ideas first. A good designer can solve most of those monetary problems.

Q. Have you ever had an idea that met with resistance from designers who should know how to put it together?

I have never had resistance to an idea, because luckily I have always had control.

Q. Do you change designers often, not necessarily by choice, or have you had the same designer for years?

I try never to change the designer that I like.

Q. Can you give us your view on the advantages of a long-term designer/artist relationship?

To me it's the communication factor. Once again, I must have a relationship with the designer and that relationship means everything.

Lighting to Convey Drama

Q. Let's say that the design is done, it is in rehearsal, and you like what you see. Do you leave it all to the designers at that point, or do you take an interest in further developing the theatrical presentation with them?

I insist upon having theatrical input. Coming from a frontman's perspective, I must take an active interest in what an audience sees and what I think they should see from me.

Q. Do you watch the stage from the front at rehearsals, or do you use a video camera and watch later to see how the show looks?

I trust the eyes of the designer and others who have input. I don't need to watch what I'll never see as an audience member.

Q. What about after you are on the road? Do you take an active role in working with the lighting designer to try to stimulate more ideas to improve the live visual presentation?

I've always insisted upon a conversation with the LD following each show. Each show sparks my imagination, as I feel it should to the LD. So far, that's always been the case.

Q. Do you like it when the lighting designer comes to you with updates and new ideas to try?

I love it.

Q. What is your best experience with visual excitement on stage?

Pyrotechnics. Everything else from a stage perspective is just flashing lights and deafening music.

Q. What is your best dramatic, show-stopping performance moment?

Extreme contrast. Black and white rocks. The rush of being so completely in sync with lights and music is an incredible bonding and dramatic moment between audience and band.

Q. How about your worst?

Mistakes. When you have an elaborate production that is supposed to work every night, and usually does, it's the cock-ups that are always most impressive, and believe me there have been too many to document.

Q. Is there a right way and a wrong way to use video content, moving graphics, or live feed during your concert?

Only if they get in the way of musical presentation. I find them sometimes to be just silly diversions.

Q. Some will argue that too much going on visually is distracting to your live performance. Is there a line for you between enough and not enough?

I think that if you let the music dictate the performance then there won't be a distraction problem.

In the End …

Q. Designers for many mid- to large-sized production tours generally don't tour with their designs but leave them in the hands of capable touring LDs after the show is up and running. Budget aside, would you prefer to have the designer stay on the road to continue to contribute his ideas to grow the production, or are you all right with having another LD stepping in?

I think the designer who is worth his or her salt would be much more productive at the drawing board. That person has already gone through the hell that was necessary and deserves a break. Choosing an LD to execute the preplanned ideas can always be difficult. But upon finding the right LD I think you should allow him to develop his own style.

Q. Most effects and imagery happen around the stage with lighting air graphic patterns through haze and behind you with imagery and effects. How can you really tell, when you are on stage, if things are going right or terribly wrong?

You can spot the obvious but are oblivious to the rest. Once again, the performers are mainly part of their own presentation and can't really see it from an audience perspective.

Q. Are there effects that you like to use on every tour that you update and use again? What are they, and what makes it worth repeating?

Pyrotechnics. They always work within the structure of extremely heavy music that I need to hear, and they always add the punctuation mark that is necessary. I think that it's the only effect that most of we stupid musicians can understand. Most of the time, we don't understand the incredible subtlety of the designer/artist.

Q. What would be your final most important bit of advice to anyone who wants to tour with a rock & roll band?

Do your job and keep quiet! The road is a great teacher, but school's never out.

GIL MOORE, VOCALIST/ DRUMMER FOR TRIUMPH

Gil Moore (Figure 25.5), vocalist/drummer and one third of the Canadian hard-rock power trio Triumph, has been writing positive-perspective lyrics and songs with guitarist Rik Emmett and bassist Mike Levine since the band formed in Toronto, Ontario, in 1975. They defined and epitomized arena rock with outstandingly produced live shows as Moore insisted on utilizing state-of-the-art lighting, laser, and pyrotechnic effects. Triumph's steady climb toward global notoriety was fueled by nonstop sold-out tours and breakthrough records: Rock and Roll Machine, Just a Game (“Hold On”), Progressions of Power, and Allied Forces (“Magic Power” and “Fight the Good Fight”). Thunder Seven produced the hit “Follow Your Heart.” “Spellbound” and “Somebody's Out There,” from 1986's The Sport of Kings, became major hit singles. Taking a hiatus from recording and touring, Gil created the Metalworks Production Group and the Metalworks Institute of Sound

and Music Production, and his recording studio Metalworks was voted the number 1 studio for 12 years in a row at the Canadian Music Industry Awards. Triumph was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame during the JUNO 2008 Awards Ceremony by the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences (CARAS). Triumph reformed to play at the Sweden Rock Festival in 2008, and more live touring is in the works (Figure 25.6).

ESTABLISHING IDEAS

Q. When you are aware that a new tour is in the works, when do the stage production ideas begin to form for you?

I think about production ideas all the time; it's just something that drifts in and out of your consciousness. I find it particularly useful to think about new ideas just before falling asleep.

Q. Do you watch other shows or concerts to stay current on what is out there, or do you rely on your lighting or production designer for new technology updates? Or is it a little of both?

The aspect of technical expertise can be overrated, and the people person aspect of the LD is incredibly important because the LD is the core of the look of the show and certainly a core member of the production team. I like to go with people that are good leaders and affable to work with in stressful situations and I think that is more important than technical knowledge.

People that Create and Implement Design Ideas and Effects

Q. How important is it for you to see visual aids, ranging from rough sketches to 3D drawings, when a new concept is being presented?

I don't think that visual aids are important at all if you are able to grasp concepts—you either have that ability to picture them in your mind's eye or you don't.

Q. Are you concerned with budgets first or ideas first?

I always like to start with the idea—to heck with the budget! There is more than one budget to an idea, depending on how the idea is scripted.

Q. Have you ever placed your trust in a designer because of a great presentation and the band authorized him to build the set or lighting rig, only to end up with chaos?

We once built a monstrous truss (and this was before the era of moving lights). It was a moving light truss; each section had 27 lights in it, and every second light was a strobe light. They were able to pan and tilt and do all sorts of tricks, all running off an Apple computer. It was a great idea, but it cost a fortune, and it was really unwieldy. When we got it on the road, I think we used it for two or three shows and then that was the end of it. It was too big, too cumbersome, and too hard to utilize.

Q. Have you had an idea before that met resistance from designers that should know how to put it together? Did you pursue it anyway because you just had to have it? What happened?

We've had resistance from time to time about the size of a lot of the PAR can hangs that we've wanted in the upstage truss—we have always wanted that massive look in the rear. for a while, designers argued that it had been done to death, but we just looked at it like the bricks and mortar of our presentation—it always had to have that industrial-strength-looking upstage truss. We always got our way.

Q. Do you change designers often, not necessarily by choice, or have you had the same designer for years?

I don't think that it make sense to change designers all the time. Once you lock into someone that you work well with creatively, my advice to anybody would be to stick with your designer.

Q. Can you give us your view on the advantages of a long-term designer/artist relationship?

The advantage of a long-term relationship is that trust takes time to build up, and over time the artist trusts the designer and vice versa, and you start to be able to really collaborate in a special way.

Art and Using Lighting and Imagery to Convey Emotion and Drama

Q. Let's say that the design is done, it is in rehearsal, and you like what you see. Do you leave it all to the designers at that point, or do you take an interest in further developing the theatrical presentation with them?

With Triumph, we never stayed out of the creative process, we never left everything (so to speak) to the designer. We always looked at it as a collaboration to keep improving and tweaking.

Q. Do you watch the stage from the front at rehearsals, or do you use a video camera and watch later to see how the show looks?

Many times I would watch the show from off stage. We would also use video cameras, and we brought our people out that were interested in us, like agents and so on, who would watch us and give us feedback about what they were seeing.

Q. What about after you are on the road? Do you take an active role in working with the lighting designer to try to stimulate more ideas to improve the live visual presentation?

Once the tour starts there is no reason to stop tweaking the show. We thought it was great to have a creative meeting at the end of shows or over breakfast on the road to try to come up with ideas on what was working well, what needed to be emphasized, and what needed to be cut.

Q. Do you like it when the lighting designer comes to you with updates and new ideas to try?

When the LD comes up with new ideas or updates it's always good. It is always good to try to make the show better, and there is no time like the present to just implement something.

Q. What is your best experience with visual excitement on stage?

Some of the best excitement when you are actually on stage performing comes from lasers—they tend to look phenomenal from on stage. Some of the other effects are best observed from the audience, but I always found that lasers look great right from on stage.

Q. What is your best dramatic, show-stopping performance moment?

I can't point to a specific spot in a per formancethat is the absolute highlight of a performance. All I can say is it's the gelling of the musicians that is unifying everybody's playing into one piston that is pumping over and over again in sync. Whatever that is, whatever that magic is—that pulse is amazing when it happens.

Q. How about your worst?

The worst thing about performing is when the band just cannot seem to sync up. It's like a bunch of moving parts that are disconnected. It happens to every band, I'm sure. It is no different with Triumph. It feels horrible.

Q. Is there a right way and a wrong way to use video content, moving graphics, or live feed during your concert?

I don't think that there is a right or a wrong way to use video, graphics, or I-MAG during a live concert. It is interpretive, and it depends on the artist and the music. It has to be tailored to the situation.

Q. Some will argue that too much going on visually is distracting to your live performance. Is there a line for you between enough and not enough?

I've never thought that it was possible to overshadow the music with the theatrics or the digitals; it is basically impossible to overdo it. With the exception of pyro, which sometimes, if it is overstated, can be too much.

In the End …

Q. Designers for many mid- to large-sized production tours generally don't tour with their designs but leave them in the hands of capable touring LDs after the show is up and running. Budget aside, would you prefer to have the designer stay on the road to continue to contribute his ideas to grow the production, or are you all right with having another LD stepping in?

The trend for designers to assign the tour to a new LD once the tour is out and running is something that I've never been too enthused with. I like the LD working from beginning to end because he is such an important member of the team. I figure the LD is almost a band member.

Q. Most effects and imagery happen around the stage with lighting air graphic patterns through haze and behind you with imagery and effects. How can you really tell, when you are on stage, if things are going right or terribly wrong?

I don't really think the performers do know precisely whether things are going as planned. We really have to rely on the LD or someone else in the audience that we trust to tell us how the effects and imagery are coming off.

Q. Are there effects that you like to use on every tour that you update and use again? What are they, and what makes them worth repeating?

We've always liked to use lasers, and we use them differently on every tour. I think that they are worth repeating because they are so unique. Same goes for pyro; we've always been a pyro band, and it's always been identified with Triumph that we've had a fairly extensive pyro show, so I think the fans would be disappointed if we didn't repeat.

Q. What would be your final most important bit of advice to anyone who wants to tour with a rock and roll band?

The best piece of advice that I can give anybody who wants to go out on the road is you gotta have the attitude that you're going to stick with it. It's a little bit like going to war. It looks like fun for the first couple of days, but after you've been out there for 2 or 3 weeks it seems like 2 or 3 years, so you've got have a lot of guts to stay out there.